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Traveller-digest            Friday, 12 July 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 240

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. RE:corn dogs
         2. Re: Corn Dogs
         3. Re: The Iridium Standard
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #232
         5. Re: The Iridium Standard
         6. Re: Hiver & Ithklur
         7. Re: Corn Dogs
         8. Re: Ship Construction Costs
         9. Re: Jump space theory, [was: Corn Dogs]
        10. Re: Corn Dogs
        11. Re: The Iridium Standard
        12. Re: The Iridium Standard
        13. Translation
        14. Imperial Involvement
        15. Ship Construction or Forgotten Flame War
        16. Re: Jump space theory

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 20:32:55 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RE:corn dogs

On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, ROWAN Iain wrote:

> What, you eat them?  Ahh, it's all clear now.  I thought from the
> original description of what was in them that they were some
> kind of weapon designed using that chapter of FF&S that I
> never read.  I thought that it was a bit strange because I'm
> sure that the Imperial Rules of War would have had something
> to say about it.  Star Trigger?  You don't frighten us, pal.  We've
> got corn dogs.

Hehehee.  Well, I don't eat them frequently.  But, like cotton candy and 
other typical circus foods, they're good once in a while.  :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 20:46:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Corn Dogs

On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Liam McCauley wrote:

>      It's funny (no, honest it is) that this is the longest running thread 
>      I've ever started.  I post ship designs, weapon designs, etc, and 
>      hardly a reply.  As soon as I ask what a bloody corn dog is...

Liam,

I have a theory about that.  I've noticed that the more complete the 
post, the fewer the replies.  Of course, the more useless the post, the 
fewer the replies as well. I guess it is a bell-shaped curve.  Ask a 
really thought-provoking question, and you'll get tons of replies.  If 
the question is at all controversial (and few good questions aren't!), 
the replies will get replies.  And so on.  That's the top of the curve.

But if you post something like we've all seen members of this list do... 
something so complete and useful, that there is nothing to say but "thank 
you" or "good job," and you won't see many replies.  Few want to fill up 
the list with nothing but posts consisting of a quote and "Great Job!"  
That's the stuff for email.

Anyway, that's the reason I see for your ship designs, weapon designs, 
etc. getting hardly a reply.  They're useful posts, very necessary and 
welcome on the list.  But they're complete...nothing can be added to them.

So, when you make such a post, be it a ship design or an exhaustively 
detailed study of some aspect of the Imperium, and you get no response:
consider that a standing ovation. :)


- -Joe

PS:  I try to remember to email the folks who post stuff that is 
particularly of use, but I must admit I often fail in this.  I see 
the post, think, "whoo hoo!," export it to the server, download it, and 
print it out.   By the time I sign on again, I'm afraid I've often 
forgotten about my benefactor.  I apologize to those whose work has 
enriched my gaming but who I have not thanked.
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:47:44 -0800
Subject: Re: The Iridium Standard

On 11 Jul 96 at 8:45, Chepe spewed:

> Other folks have claimed that elemental abundances shouldn't vary much
> between stellar systems, and thus a Gold/Iridium/Unobtainium standard
> would be workable.  But, while the abundances wouldn't vary much, the
> _exploitation_ and hence _available supply_ would.  There used to be
> places on Earth where you could pick up copper nuggets off the ground...
> but not after the Bronze Age got going.  Gold deposits were few and
> far between in the Old World after centuries of mining... and then the
> New World gave a bonanza of riches to the Spanish (which wrecked their
> economy in just the way people are supposing!  I don't think they've
> ever quite recovered... though problems like Franco have also intervened).

Very good point, Joe...

Actually, there's a very good example of this on present day 
Earth...DeBeers...they own the majority of the diamond market.  If 
anybody else discovers diamonds, they buy them out, or expect them to 
fall in line.  DeBeers artificially regulates the price of diamonds 
by limiting supply...

This sort of thing could be even easier on an interstellar scale...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:55:09 -0800
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #232

On 11 Jul 96 at 0:13, Paul Walker spewed:

> From the mother in "Honey I blew up the Kid":
> 
> "There's one thing that every kid knows, dads mean fun, but momma means
> business!!"

:-)

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:57:42 -0800
Subject: Re: The Iridium Standard

On 11 Jul 96 at 20:22, Joe Walsh spewed:

> 
> Some people will therefore have "insider information."  That is true 
> today.  It is illegal in the US, nevertheless it happens that people 
> trade on insider information - and I don't doubt that most go uncaught.  
> 
> Perhaps, in the Far Future, acquiring trading information prior to its 
> public release, then trading based on that information, will be illegal 
> as well.

I think we can take all of the above as a given.  I have a few draft 
ideas on a possible adventure re. Insider Trading that I'm currently 
working on...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 19:06:36 -0800
Subject: Re: Hiver & Ithklur

On 11 Jul 96 at 10:24, Paul Walker spewed:

> Again, I'm not bashing anyone who knows the material.  I'm a bit perterbed
> by those who don't know the material and yet continue to bash TNE and its
> supplements.  I regret that I didn't get involved with Traveller earlier so

Actually, I was a bit cranky about it earlier.  As a result of a 
reread (more like a reskim really) I take back a little bit about 
H&I.  I didn't particularly like the writing style, and there was a 
great deal of departure from the way in which the Hivers were written 
in both earlier JTAS articles, and the previous CT alien module...  I 
guess that bothered me more than anything else.  They took a good, 
well developed alien, rewrote, and added way too much weak humor...


> Hiver & Ithklur.  I don't think that apart from the "cannon" issue there is
> any problem with Hiver & Ithklur.  If the previous stuff had never been
> done, Hiver & Ithklur would be a wealth of information, enough for any
> referee to run a Hiver or Ithklur PC or NPC.

No...I guess not, for someone who doesn't have the old stuff.  But I have 
enough problems with it being a departure from previously published 
stuff, that I can't get over that fact.  There is definitely enough 
stuff to run them as a race, but it would be a different enough alien 
as to bear little resemblance to the CT Hivers...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 21:22:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Corn Dogs

On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Wes Payne wrote:

> Well, so what if it's culturally self-centered?  All we've really got to 
> draw on is contemporary culture, or that which has occurred earlier.  I 
> find, in running my campaigns, that I must often explain future cultural 
> phenomena by citing contemporary (or historical) examples.  Most often these 
> serve as touchstones which aid in understanding the environment I'm trying 
> to describe, rather than irrelevancies which undermine the players' 
> suspension of disbelief in that environment.


I've thought about this sort of thing a number of times while reading 
science fiction.  It IS a quandry, isn't it?  The author can either have 
the characters speaking in what, to us, would be gibberish (which the 
author would then have to, rather laboriously, explain) most of the time, 
or the author can sprinkle the text with gibberish (which can be 
explained here and there) and keep the rest to what a 20th century reader 
can understand the referent for immediately.

The first is very realistic, but not too fun to read.  The second is less 
realistic, but is fun to read.  It's obvious why authors tend to choose 
the second. :)

Still, that doesn't make it realistic.  

I guess, as usual, it depends.  What you are doing will determine which 
method you use.   In a sourcebook for a game, the main text should use the 
second method.  Introduce new concepts and terms (such as jump drive, 
HEPlaR, etc.) as needed, but explain them in 20th-century terms.  You're 
trying to impart knowledge to the reader, after all.  But the 
"sidelights" or local color bits (like those used in the Starship 
Operator's Manual) can use the first method - without explanation!  Have 
the characters talk like they would if they were real. Sure, that much 
will be total gibberish to those who haven't read the main text.  But 
that's OK, as you WANT them to read the main text. :)

I don't have H&I.  But if it follows that rule, then the reference to 
corndogs wouldn't bother me.  If not, it might.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 21:29:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Ship Construction Costs

On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Andrew Wardell wrote:

> Does there exist, or has anyone given any thought to the COST of ship 
> construction, as opposed to its PRICE?
> How much of the 'purchase price' of a starship is materials/labor and how much 
> is profit?  If a government owns a shipyard outright, it seems that logically 
> they would be able to build ships for less than 'blue-book' price.

Why, are you planning on opening a shipyard?  :)

Seriously, that's a good question.  Knowing the /cost/ of the components 
(including labor) would open up all sorts of interesting activities to 
players...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 21:35:43 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Jump space theory, [was: Corn Dogs]

On Fri, 12 Jul 1996, Tommy Grav wrote:

> I was thinking about this and found something I think I will use in my campaign.
> Since fuel is needed during the jump, I assume it is needed to hold the ship in
> J-space. That means that to stay in J-space, "real world" matter needes a stable 
> bubble, lets call it a J-bubble. I would think that going to "real" space from
> J-space would involve some kind of radiation outburst. Therefor why not let fuel 
> used during jump be ventet out of the ship into the J-bubble. As the ship moves 
> so will the J-bubble and eventually the hydrogen molecules/atoms will reach the 
> border of the J-bubble and leave it. As it leaves the J-bubble it is "thrown"
> into "real" space, where it radiates a distinctive pattern, calles J-radiation.
> A special sensor could then be designed to pick up this extremly faint (I quess
> we are talking a few atoms per meter) radiation as a trail after the ship travelling
> in J-space. 
> 
> Any comments????

Hmmm.  T'would take someone more knowledgeable than me to say how 
difficult it would be to sort out a few atoms per meter in deep space, 
and at what distance it would be possible (in the Far Future) to do so.  
Nonetheless, it sounds like a really neat gimmick.  Something I would 
consider using in my campaign.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 20:52:56 -0800
Subject: Re: Corn Dogs

On 10 Jul 96 at 23:52, John Kovalic spewed:

> My own beef with the Corn Dogs comes from the sheer number of 20th century
> referrences found in later Traveler material. Would a civilization
> X-hundred years from now *really* still be obsessed by late 20th-century
> junk (read "pop") culture? It struck me as being damn culturally
> self-centered. For me, the whole mystique of the Imperium broke down on
> such pieces of pop-centricism. Especially the Monty Python referrences. And
> I'm a Monty Python FAN!

This is a trap that TNE fell into often...

> How much popular culture from even 150 years ago is still around on this
> island Earth?

Uh...Charles Dickens...a few Stephen Foster songs...uh...come to 
think of it, that's about all I can think of...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 21:37:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: The Iridium Standard

On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:

> Some people will therefore have "insider information."  That is true
> today.  It is illegal in the US, nevertheless it happens that people
> trade on insider information - and I don't doubt that most go uncaught.
>
> Perhaps, in the Far Future, acquiring trading information prior to its
> public release, then trading based on that information, will be illegal
> as well.

This is what I was getting at in my earlier post...I imagine that this
type of system would be much more fun to play.  After all, what's the fun
in playing in a perfect environment.

Also, this presents a vast number of lucrative enterprises on worlds off
of x-boat communications lines.  Look at all the information services we
have today...For some price (in direct proportion to the speed with which
the information is presented), one could subscribe to an offworld news
provider.

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
"The gods do not protect fools. Fools are protected by more capable fools"
                                          -- Larry Niven, _Ringworld_


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 21:41:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: The Iridium Standard

On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> I think we can take all of the above as a given.  I have a few draft
> ideas on a possible adventure re. Insider Trading that I'm currently
> working on...

I am interested in hearing about those ideas...I have a couple of my own
at the moment.   It would seem that we are hashing out an environment in
which the trader is no longer locked in to hauling bulk lug-nuts from
world to world.

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
"The gods do not protect fools. Fools are protected by more capable fools"
                                          -- Larry Niven, _Ringworld_


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 12 Jul 96 02:31:07 EDT
Subject: Translation

>> It was rather surreal: they couldn't understand each other over half the
time, but I understood both of them clearly (discounting for drinks consumed)
and they understood me with no problems. <<

So maybe the electronic translator used by the IISS needs an extra mode setting;
"Normal/Merry/Pissed/Bombed" .....

HWF


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 12 Jul 96 02:31:09 EDT
Subject: Imperial Involvement

>> How many folks right now care *how* their UN representative is
appointed/elected/whatever? The Imperium doesn't affect everyday life *on
planet* much more than the UN affects everday life in most countries.  <<

I _like_ this comparison! The UN sort of bibbles about "above" nations,
interfering when "uber-laws" are broken (sometimes). What gives me the willies
is the idea of an Imperial economic overlordship similar to our gawdawful EEC
situation - faceless bureaucrats half a continent away handing down pointless
and badly-thought-out laws to screw up the way our country works. (They want to
stop us buying beer in pints! Aarrgghhh!). This on an Imperial scale could be a
real PC nightmare....

HWF


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 02:10:03 -0500
Subject: Ship Construction or Forgotten Flame War

Can you say "Forgotten Flame War?"  Good for you, Andrew, I think this
semi-major flame war got lost in all the recent references to the MAJOR
flame war topics (ie Virus, Rock Dropping)

>From: "Andrew Wardell" <wardell@m1.sprynet.com>
>Subject: Ship Construction Costs

These questions are of particular interest to me.  Aside from the small
group that thinks Starship construction and operation is more akin to
airplanes, I think everyone agrees that ocean going vessels are a much
better model than most others.  This pleases me, since I have been working
in a ship yard for the past 17 months, and my dad has been in the business
for the past 15 to 20 years.  I'm glad when the discussion comes to an area
where I feel I have some expertise.


>Does there exist, or has anyone given any thought to the COST of ship 
>construction, as opposed to its PRICE?

Now, to answer your questions.  First, I'm in purchasing at the yard I work
at, so I don't get involved with a lot of the accounting, but IIRC we
typically shoot for anywhere from 15 to 25 percent "profit" on a first
vessel.  If the job is a multple vessel job, the subsequent hulls will
naturally bring home more profit.  So, to answer your question, 15 to 25
percent cost for a first or single hull, and about an additional 5 to 10
percent for additional hulls (up to about five when the profit margin gets
even higher).  In reality, it would depend on the company that built the
ship with influence as to the location of the ship yard, and the tech level.

>How much of the 'purchase price' of a starship is materials/labor and how much 
>is profit?

As a rule of thumb, a surface vessel will split cost evenly between
materials and labor.  As I said before, the price to cost ratio will vary
with the number of hulls in the job, as well as other factors.


>  If a government owns a shipyard outright, it seems that logically 
>they would be able to build ships for less than 'blue-book' price.

I can't speak for the Imperium, but the US (and many foreign countries)
don't build ships themselves.  Much of the high-tech outfitting is done at
the naval shipyards, but the actual ships are constructed by another
facility (Trinity Marine, Ingles, & Bollinger to name a few).  We are
working on a navy project right now, and because of the "Buy American Act,"
the "Small/Small Disadvantaged Business Laws," & and other legislation the
price we charge the Navy is actually higher than a civillian would pay for
the same exact product.  I think many of the larger governments have their
own repair facilities, but purchase their ships from a private company.  One
of my companies primary customers (aside from the US Navy) is the Phillipine
Coast Guard.


>Also, any thoughts on how long (in man-hours) it takes to build a starship, or 
>what facilities are needed to do so?

During the last discussion on construction times, I worked out the example
from the navy contract we were working on at the time (the same one we're
doing know).  With a little bit of research, I found the original post...

>Recently, there has been some discussion about production times of
>starships.  I thought I might attempt to shed some light on this subject.  I
>am a purchasing agent at a marine shipyard and we are working on a barge
>that will take us just over two years to complete.  This vessel has an
>approx. steel weight of 3,000 tons.  It is constructed out of Std steel
>(FF&S mass # = 8).  This barge is approx. 360' x 90' x 9' or in metric 110m
>x 27m x 2.7m.  This totals just over 8,000 cubic meters of displacement.
>From the Hull Size Table in FF&S this is just under 600 displacement tons.
>It will take us close to ten months of actual steel construction (Welding,
>fitting, erection, etc.) and nearly 18 months of outfitting(passenger
>accommodations, electrical systems, water systems, painting, etc.).  Of this
>time approx. 4 months will be overlap (ie. painting the midbody while we
>erect the bow & stern) giving us a total construction time of 24 months.
>This is a barge (ie. no internal drive mechanism), and we are one of the
>most productive facilities in the small vessel marine industry.  This vessel
>will be on trials for nearly six more months before it is delivered to the
>customer.

I would expect to see Starship production times to be similar.  Yes, the
technology has improved, but so has the material that is being worked with.


>Oh yeah, and is there a canon figure for the price discount for a 
>"standard-design" starship?

I know the 10 percent for a "standard hull" is mentioned in MT, and I think
it is included in FF&S as well.  The new systems (QSDS & SSDS) both include
a standardization discount based on the amount of standardation used by the
hull.

I hope this helps answer your questions, if you have any others, let me
know.  BTW, I figure someone else will bring up the 747 analogy soon enough,
so I wont burden an already long post with the details of that!


>"Aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

I'm sure someone (probably a son or daughter) really asked this question too.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 02:10:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Jump space theory

>Subject: Jump space theory

This subject is one of my pet peeves!  I'm going to try to stay reasonable,
but if I don't would a friend kindly slap me and put me in my place (no
rocks please).  ;)

>> : > Actually, I think that they were planning on changing the way jump
>> : > drives worked.  This is why you now need fuel as coolant and it's used
>> : > up during the jump instead of all at once.  Yes, this aspect of TNE was
>> : > suppossed to invalidate SOM.
>> : >
>> : A whole new problem there, J-space pollution! Leftover Hydrogen molecules
>> : from ship coolant could eventually make frequently used traderoutes
>> : unusable (say maybe over a couple of decades-centuries).
>> 
>> And since when has the military or commercial intrests cared about the
>> envrionment?  8)
>> 
>> Seriously though, we don't know what effects it'll have on j-space.  For
>> all we know, it may have none.  I'm not saying that it was a perfect
>> solution, I'm just saying that it didn't break "canon."  Technically,
>> every version of Traveller says that the most recently published
>> material supercedes any prior version when there's a rules or
>> description discrepancy.

This is my very arguement for the necessary use of hydrogen in J-drives
(preventing an all Antimatter J-drive).  Hydrogen is used because its
simplicity allows it to interact with the J-universe without causing too
much trouble.  In my universe (and I hope in MMT) the hydrogen "pressure" of
the bubble surrounding the ship must be kept up or the effects of J-space
encroach upon the ship.  This is where one of my MAJOR problems with SOM (an
otherwise excellent supplement) was.  We are told that if by some chance
Jump space gets too close to the ship, it can cause severe damage and
possibly destroy the ship, but the engineer has nothing to do with the jump
drive during jump.  In my universe, the Astrogator and the Engineering crew
take turns on "Jump watch" more to be present if a problem occurs than to
watch for a problem.  The computer moniters the "tumble" of the ship, the
energy trickle to the hydrogen bubble, and the "pressure of the bubble
itself while in jump, and the crewman on Jump Watch keeps a check on the
computer.  If the computer detects a slight variation, alarms go off, and
the crewman attempts to correct the problem if he can.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #240
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